Frank Schwartz: Epic Burnout & the Comeback

Burnout

Frank gets vulnerable and shares a very personal burnout story. Learn how Frank’s team helped pull him out of this dark space and how they help him define success today.

This week, Julie has a conversation with the founder and owner of G3L Leadership, Frank Schwartz. Frank gets vulnerable and shares a very personal burnout story. On the outside, looked like he was killing it. But for about 18 months he was ritualistically driving his truck out to a desolate field to cry or scream. He was the kind of tired that sleep can’t fix. Learn how Frank’s team helped pull him out of this dark space and how they help him define success today.

Julie Bee – Host: [00:00:00] Hey there I’m Julie B and your listening to they don’t teach this and business school, a podcast where we discuss business ownership, lessons that are learned through experience, not in a class. Today, I’m really excited to get the opportunity to interview Frank Schwartz, the founder of T3 L leadership, Frank and I have kind of grown up in business together.

And I’m looking forward to this conversation because I know he has some very valuable lessons for business owners. So Frank, welcome to the show today. I’m really glad to have you here. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Thank you, Julie. I, you know, you say growing up in business together and you’re kind of right. I mean, we just started at a very similar time and went through some very similar groups and things together and yeah.

Well, you know, I have a long, a longish list of favorite people. I won’t lie and say that, oh, it’s very short. I like a lot of people, but you are definitely on that list. I’m grateful to 

Julie Bee – Host: be here. [00:01:00] I can say the same. So Frank, the first question I want to ask you is will you just give us a brief overview of leadership, what you all do there and your role in the.

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Sure, absolutely. So I will start with a short answer. So my role is I’m the, the idiot who started it and that’s the thought it would be a good idea. So that’s my role, a guy who started it. And I guess in that sense also as, as it is with most, you know, micro businesses or solo businesses, or even, you know, even a twos and threes, the businesses right, where you’re kind of the chief development guy.

You know that the accountant you’re the everything, right? I’m the lead trainer, you know, whatever it is. Right. So play kind of all the roles bring in, you know, external help when you need it. But really I’m, I’m employee one. Right. And this started as, as kind of a, you know, a side gig into my side gig.

Right. My side gig that I’ve been doing for the last 16 years, feeding my families, you know, is that the [00:02:00] corporate communications company. Right. But what I, what I kind of realized was that. Even the real problems, aren’t really communication problems. The real problems are leadership problems like that.

You know, we can talk about it all day, but the real problem are out of this is leadership. And so I thought I’m gonna just kind of start this at this little side gig. Of course I managed to start it right at the perfect time. So, you know, end of 2019, everybody saw that one coming. So that was good. I think you should speak in front of groups.

Sounds good. Oh wait. No, you can’t. I think you should go see people in their offices yet not have it right. So what we do though, a really, and it’s kind of refined over time. You know, the intent, when it, when I started was like, oh, I can teach these great leadership principles that I know. And I’ve learned through my own experience of leading teams and leading a company, leading a big, you know, international fitness and leadership organization.

Like I’ve got all these great leadership experiences and I’ll just go and teach them to companies and helping them to be better. And over the last couple of years is I’ve done a [00:03:00] little of that here and there. What I’m finding more and more is the real problem, the real, real problem. Right. I keep trying to dig deeper and deeper and try and find the real problem.

One of the real real problems is we have leaders who are engaged in the business part of things, and they’ve got that 

Midroll Spot: down pretty well. And they kind 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: of okay at the people part of things, you know, for the most part, but what they’re really sucky yet is the them part of. You know, you and I have even had this discussion before, if I’m remembering right, is that, you know, what’s the real problem here?

Oh, you’re the real problem, you know, and we often, we’re our worst enemies. We, our biggest obstacles. Yeah. Somebody who thinks that if we could get, get to the point, we’re figuring ourselves out better and get out of our own way, then it could be a lot more successful. And so that’s what I seek to do is to help leaders find their personal purpose and to really figure out are they living that out in their business?

And if it’s not, how do we help them shift that so that they’re living out what they were put here for their unique ability, their unique. [00:04:00] You know, and, and bring that to the world through their 

Julie Bee – Host: business leadership. I think it starts with self-leadership and that gets down to the, what you just said, this, the thing that they’re sucky at is the dumb part of all of it.

How do you approach someone who, well, first of all, how do you help somebody realize that they are, you know, kind of sucking at that part of the leadership, and then what’s the first step what’s, what’s the first step in getting better at that 

Midroll Spot: part of it, you know? 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Well, you know, if somebody doesn’t want to know that they’re in pain and they’re just going to sit in denial of their pain like that.

So sometimes you can see it in a guy’s face. I have found for myself, we were talking right before we hit record, like the, I think the trick is to figure out what you’re good at, who, you know, what is your unique thing? You bring the world. And then who is that unique people group you’re to serve. And for me, it’s kind of really honed down to, and I don’t know the right way to say it.

I’m not sure how much we’re allowed to swear on this. But [00:05:00] really finding ways to help male executives or even just, they don’t have to be executives, middle management actually middleman. It almost happens more helping these guys to them to learn, to not be able to stop, stop being that way. They don’t really actually want to be.

They just, they never learned any good skills on how to lead otherwise, you know, so what we find a lot is, you know, how do we help them realize that I ask them certain questions and sometimes. Hey, you seem like a kind of guy who, you know, you probably had a couple of promotions probably in your mid thirties, you know, approaching 40, you just bought, you know, either the dream house or the step-up house your cars are now paid for.

And you just had your second child and you’re looking at your life and you’re going, is it. What’s next? You don’t have a good answer and I’ll tell you if, and I just, you know, that’s the question I asked them. So does that sound familiar at all? And nine times out of 10 might be an exaggeration eight guys out of 10.

Look at me [00:06:00] and go. That’s exactly what, how did you know that I’m that exactly that old and those things are exactly what’s happening in my life and I’m because you’re not special, you know, you know, th 

Midroll Spot: this is, this is the, this is the deal. This is what, right. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Exactly. Right. This is the pattern. This is just how, how it operates.

I can’t help that. Usually they look and go, okay, well, what am I doing wrong? I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong necessarily. You know, that’s not a helpful question. I think the helpful question is, is. Are you on a mission? Are you on purpose? You know, are you doing those things? It’s not that you’re doing anything bad necessarily, but you definitely can tell when a guy feels dissatisfied in the way that he talks about his life, you know, you ask him, Hey man, how’s it going?

What does he lead with? You know, right. Again, the vast majority of the time, he’s going to tell you why his boss sucks or why his people suck at work or something like that. I’m like, here’s what you don’t know. And the big rings, you know, of, 

Midroll Spot: of where you should care, you know, your, 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: your significant other.

[00:07:00] And if you have children and you know, those close friends and, you know, your associates and things like that, those are your center rings, right? That work ring. That’s why on the outside man, like that, it’s just a sustaining relationship. You do not need to put your life in the hands of another person and let them run it for you like that.

It’s just, it’s not gonna help. And that’s why they find this dissatisfied, empty feeling. Do you 

Julie Bee – Host: find that that dynamic is any different for business owners specifically? You 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: now, in some ways it’s funny as business owners are harder to convince, uh, that there’s anything. Shocking, right. Notoriously stubborn.

People who want things their own way. 

Julie Bee – Host: You have convinced themselves that they can’t be an employee again. Every kind of person. Yes. 

Midroll Spot: Yeah. I mean, 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: that’s me all the time. They’re like, oh, what are you doing? I’m like, well, I’m unemployed because I’m not employable. Like, it’s just, that’s just not possible. My brain [00:08:00] was damaged too much.

Now. I don’t know if there’s a way to get back, but yeah, no, I think business owners, a lot of times. You know, I work with, with some who are again, you know, solo entrepreneurs, some who run small businesses. I don’t work with, you know, big executives at big companies, things like that. That’s that’s for other guys that I’m more of a, you know, privately held family business, kind of a thing, especially the son who’s taking over for his dad, you know, kind of thing that, that sort of dynamic and that kid, you know, all he wants to, he went, he got.

You know, it’s just funny that, you know, here we are, well, they don’t teach you in business. Right. He got his MBA. He knows the numbers. I can’t even help him with those. I’m not smart enough. You know? I don’t know. That’s tough. 

Midroll Spot: Oh, profitability. Yeah. I forgot about that. You know, it’s important. Yeah. That seems important, right?

Yeah. So my other business, that’s why you got a guy 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: or gal, like you asked them, they do it. I don’t know how to do it. But I asked them if I’m allowed to spend my videos, who’s got his MBA, he’s doing his thing and he’s, and [00:09:00] he’s doing well, but 

Midroll Spot: he 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: doesn’t necessarily recognize. And again, I say he, because that’s typically who I work with, but it can be easy.

She doesn’t, it doesn’t really matter. Right. But a business owner, I think in that situation a lot of times they’re so especially in a small business, they’re so entrenched, just so 

Midroll Spot: deep in. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: The muck and the mire of the everyday operation of the business, that they don’t even realize that there’s anything wrong for them to work on.

They know they’re frustrated by certain things, know they might be frustrated by certain employee things or, you know, they might be frustrated by it, you know, the customer things or whatever it might be. But, but they, they still, I think a lot of times look and go, well, the problems out there, you know, it’s external, so something’s happening.

It’s not going my way. Yeah. Convincing them, especially again hard-headed oh really? Oh. Those people are hard to convince the amazing, very 

Julie Bee – Host: stubborn and challenging. I’m pretty sure they’re all Tauruses. Like [00:10:00] if all of the Zodiac that we’re all tourists as I’m a tourist, so I’m pretty sure that’s what

Frank Schwartz – Guest: at 

Midroll Spot: the recording of this, 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: this pond gas, my birthday is tomorrow and I am a Taurus. 

Julie Bee – Host: A few days later. So we are very, yeah, we, our birthdays 

Midroll Spot: are very close to each other. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Yeah. That’s hilarious. 

Midroll Spot: Julie has spoken to countless organizations for 13 years on topics, including leadership management, employee engagement, and morale, workplace culture, small business ownership and entrepreneurs.

If you’d like it, engage a relatable and inspiring speaker for your next event, book, Julie, to speak to your group in more details@thejulieb.com. 

Julie Bee – Host: Hey, this is Julie V and you’re listening to, they don’t teach this in business school today. I’m talking with Frank Schwartz of G three L leadership. And frankly, we’re just talking about how business owners kind of get in the muck of the daily [00:11:00] business operations and how that can be.

You can just get stuck in there. And I want to ask you if you’ve ever experienced burnout from that type of thing. And if you have any stories, you’d be willing to share. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Wow. I’m willing to share. It might be a chat. No, I’m just kidding. There’s sometimes when I look back and go, I have we experienced not burnout.

Is there a time when I have not felt burnt out? You know, and it’s certainly, it’s, it’s worse at certain times than others. Right. And I remember, uh, I’ll share this. It was probably, I want to say six ish years ago. And the business was doing well. And I thought, you know, I’m unstoppable and you know, all that kind of stuff.

And we had kind of a pretty heavy downturn and it wasn’t anything that we had done necessarily. It was kind of a, just a lot of weird things that all happened at once. You know, it was one of these things where it was like, oh, you don’t one of our large clients [00:12:00] fired everybody in the marketing. Including, but I mean, they just cleaned it out entirely because they were like, we’re tired of being number six.

And so they just fired everybody and we’re like, wait, what? We were just doing what they said, we’ll, we’ll help we’re outside vendors. They’re like, Nope, everybody’s dead. Yeah. Okay. You know, nothing to do about that one. Right. And so you kind of go, okay, that hurts, but you know, we’ll be fine. It’s fine. No we’ll pull through and then, you know, another one was like, oh yeah, we decided to hire internally now.

And so we’re, you know, stopping relationships, not saying, oh, okay. That sucks. You know, we’ll make it. It’s fine. It’s fine. I’ll bring Schwartz, I’ll pull it out. It’s fine. I’m a genius. I got this. You know, and, 

Midroll Spot: and then the 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: chase and the hassle, and, you know, trying to figure out how to make payroll and all those things really kind of led up to a little bit of a crash, a little bit of a.

On, you know, on my part. And I mean, I hesitatingly share because I don’t want them to think I went nuts, but I did not go nuts, but I remember Giuliani, I’ll share this with you with my [00:13:00] dear friend. I mean, I remember sitting in my truck in the middle of an empty field and just staring out the window and 

Midroll Spot: going, what have I done?

What am I really, what on earth is going on? 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Um, I’m, I’m the kind of tired that sleep can’t fix. And I just couldn’t anymore. And I remember for a couple of months, maybe, maybe more than I’d like to admit, you know, obviously a guy who wore suits to work every day. And I was showing up in flip flops and shorts, and I just sat in my office and watched Netflix, man.

I didn’t do it. I couldn’t, I could not bring myself to do anything. 

Julie Bee – Host: I was thinking about how you were blaming yourself for the burnout and I’m sure in some ways there were things that you were doing. I know ego was probably in there. It sounds like the event that caused it or that really puts you over was when you were, when you lost those 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: [00:14:00] clients and actually do the real precipitates of that precipitated event.

Was, you know, we made an acquisition and that was part of my business strategy to, to grow throughout the Southeast and become this giant mega, you know, communications monster, you know, whatever Megatron business. Right. And, and so I acquired a competitor here in Charlotte thinking, oh, this will really shore up our Charlotte office.

And then I’ll start traveling throughout the Southeast. And I had already identified and identified a lot of candidates to be acquired in some of these places. And I was gonna start going to Raleigh. And I had, uh, uh, Jacksonville, Florida, Austin, Texas, you know, these were all places. I was like, oh yeah, I’m just gonna go, like I got this, we’re just gonna get stuck doing this.

Right. Yeah. Acquisition of course. I didn’t listen to anything anyone said, of course they don’t teach you this in business school. Well, funny story, even if they had, I wouldn’t know, I didn’t go to business school, so I really had no idea. I didn’t listen to good advice. And I did the whole [00:15:00] merger, you know, acquisition thing.

Totally. I burnt through every bit of cash that we had. And so I had nothing for the rainy day. And then when the rainy day started coming in, what we realized too is, you know, I was such an arrogant guy at the time and you know, you really back then, I wasn’t like a horrible person, you know, jerk. Yeah. But I was so convinced of my correctness, you know, my right.

That I just did what I wanted, because I was like, no, I didn’t know what I’m doing. Like, I can figure this out like that. And it’s, it’s true, but it’s a, that’s a curse. And I shouldn’t say it to my children as often as I do, but I always say, look, much. Number of people have figured this out. How do you you’ll be fine?

You know? So I look at other, other dumb people, you know, acquire people surely up with that. I’m very smart, right? So this, this hubris right, you know, builds and I would go to their clients, the acquired. Right. And I would try to force them into our system without recognizing what they loved about the people that they worked with.

The four guys that we bought was that they were worth this, you [00:16:00] know, little small two man shop, you know, and they were like, Hey, you know, they could call them on a Friday afternoon and be like, Hey, we need this, you know, Monday morning, and guys they’ll just stay through the weekend. You know, I’m like, we don’t do that here.

We’re big, you know, we have people that we work, you know, that’s not how we do, if you’re going to have to get. We’ve got a process 

Julie Bee – Host: you’re year our process and that’s it. Yeah. 

Midroll Spot: Yeah. And they’re 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: like, oh really a funny story by, right. So, you know, so it wasn’t just the loss of, you know, my own clients, even then these other clients that I was counting on, you know, forever.

To help pay all this overhead. Of course, I’m like, well, I’m more people. We have more people that would live in a much bigger office. So what we do with much bigger office? Yeah. Where should I be? I’ll be right next to the right in the middle of the things. I was less than a mile from Bank of America stadium.

I’m big deal. You know, we have 4,000 square feet running around. We’ve got away with all kinds of things. Right. [00:17:00] And, um, and then, you know, to your point, the burnout starts coming and it was like, Julie. I was like, I can’t even, I couldn’t buy a car. After a while then I’d think, you know, you sure there were other mitigating circumstances probably, but do I really believe that the biggest problem was me?

I do. I do. 

Julie Bee – Host: Yeah. It’s almost like you. I feel like that’s the, when you bring that in, I feel like the universe maybe slapped you around a little bit. There. That’s what it feels. That’s what it felt like to me when I knew you were going through that and kind of seeing that play 

Midroll Spot: out. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Yeah, no, I think that was accurate.

I think it was. And part of it, was it ironically or not? Ironically, I felt like I was starting this quest of my own to stay. What’s my purpose? And what am I here? You know, now that I’ve nailed all this, you know, now that I have this clearly, you know, in hand, right, what am I supposed to do? And I do, I feel like the universe kind of, we’d be happy to show you, [00:18:00] but your arrogance is keeping you from that.

And so we’re going to just destroy, you know, systematically dismantle everything, and you’re going to have to figure it out from there. And that’s. In the last five, six years, that’s what I’ve been doing. You know, we changed the model we downsized and we went from 10 to four in that time and then stayed for, for a long time.

And then, you know, now we’re, we’re, you know, readjusting and looking at new ways of doing things, but, you know, it’s a much better sized business. Our style and our, you know, what we’ve got going on, you know, our clients and things like that. So it’s 

Julie Bee – Host: there you were. I remember you telling me about going to the field and sitting in your truck and just sitting there and, and all of the, the tiredness, just the fatigue that sleep didn’t fix.

What, what got you out of that? What pulled you out of that state of burnout? 

Midroll Spot: So the 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: LinkedIn hustle, correct? Quote-unquote correct. [00:19:00] Is, you know, I read enough Gary 

Midroll Spot: Vaynerchuk that I just 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: grabbed myself by my socks and ran out my door or something. It ain’t like that. Right, right, right. I’ll tell you what, actually, I was a couple of things.

One was time, just needed time. You know, my brain, I spent almost two years about a year and a half. I spent about a year and a half and I didn’t have a single idea. And that’s like one of my, absolutely not. Never at a loss for an idea. Someone comes in with a problem. I hear here’s 10 things that you probably know that maybe you thought of, maybe you haven’t like, you know, like an it’s just how my brain just does stuff.

And I spent, you know, a year and a half, two years with no ideas. So I knew that I was just smoked know I was just, yeah. And so part of it was just time. I knew I needed enough time for my head to clear. And the other thing, honestly, and this one is a little sensitive, but it was. The people that I kept on staff, it was their belief.

[00:20:00] They believed enough in me and said, because I kept telling him, I was like, y’all going to go get jobs. This is over. We’re dead. You know, we’re done here. There’s nothing else I’m done. And they were like, we think during no back, 

Julie Bee – Host: it’s amazing how your team, your staff, your employees, contractors, whoever those key people are that stick with you, how much they bolster you up when you need it.

And it’s, it’s, it’s a rare. Some business owners are fortunate, fortunate enough to have it, but a lot aren’t and I’m fortunate enough to have it. I have a key employee who’s like ride or die, no matter what. And it’s, it’s really, it’s so refreshing to know that even when you don’t believe in yourself, there’s somebody there at work who actually believes in you.

Yeah. 

Midroll Spot: And 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: I’m glad you said it worked because I don’t want it for in any way. I mean, you have a very loving wife, a very loving wife. She was super supportive through the [00:21:00] whole thing and was right there with me and willing to go the distance in whatever direction I decided, you know, we needed to go. And that of course helps.

Of course, that helps somehow it’s a little bit different though, as well, to have someone who’s in it, you know, who’s willing to say, I see literally what you’re going through because I’m experiencing the same things, you know, and, and to be supportive in a way that’s part of what really pulled it out.

And then, you know, a lot of self-reflection and a lot of, I got. Who helped immensely. And that was part of what kind of spawned this idea of coaching people too. Cause I was like, man, that if you can get in there and the deep, you know, the deep mud, you know, the dark parts and really get some work done, some emotional.

Yeah, you 

Julie Bee – Host: really can. And that’s what I think is so interesting when you go from being running one business, you know, we’re both, we’ve both run marketing or communication businesses to doing some type of coaching work and the ability, the ability. [00:22:00] For you to go in and kind of have that view and that the self-reflection and to share that message with the people that you’re coaching is really invaluable.

I know I’ve had coaches that have been just so helpful and that, and I think coaching is just crucial for small business owners. ’cause a lot of the times, they’re the, you know, you’re, you’re at the top and you have to have somebody you can talk to about things and you got to know the person you can, you’re talking to, you can trust with your deepest, darkest secrets.

And if you don’t have somebody to share those with at the business owner level, it’s a, it’s a slog. It can be really hard to just show up for work every day. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: You know, it’s funny up to that point, I had hired a couple of consultants. Right consultants to help me to run my business and part of what killed me in some ways that burnt me out.

Yeah. Since we’re talking about Verno [00:23:00] was, you know, this guy, he had worked for one of the big, you know, the big consulting firms. And he knew like, when I told him, I said, look, I’m, I want eight figures. That’s what I’m headed for. That’s what I want. And it was like, okay, but here’s what it takes. This is what that is.

And running myself and trying to run my teams and all that kind of stuff. It was so anti Frank Schwartz and how I truly, you know, how I am, but I knew that, but I was obsessed with the goal and I’m like, well, I can’t, that’s tough. I don’t care if you want to be nice to these people right now, they have to get in line because we have things we have to do.

And we have to in a certain way, because otherwise we’re not going to hit our numbers. We don’t have. I don’t know what happened. Apparently we don’t die cause he right. We, 

Midroll Spot: we survive. Oh, we’re happy. Oh, we’re happy 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: if we don’t hit the number, that’s what I was supposed to do. So, but you know, and ultimately it was so a consultant is fine, but when it was, when I finally engaged a coach, [00:24:00] You know, and somebody who was willing to not look at the business and tell me what needed to change, but look at me and tell me what I needed to change.

Now. That was, that was a big piece 

Julie Bee – Host: of it. It’s amazing how, when you’re not making decisions that are aligned with your personal core values, no matter if you’re at work at home, wherever you are, how far off you can get and how man, how. Part of a kick in the pants you can get, because those core values, you’ve got to know what they are and you got to eat, got to make values, align decisions.

Cause if you don’t, you’re just going to crash and burn. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Oh yeah, no, a hundred percent. And it’s funny, the, the analogy that I’ve used explaining this to people sometimes it’s. You know, if you imagine, you know, railroad right. And somewhere in Missouri at the train yard, somebody moved a switch wrong. And the piece of metal that moved this train from, you know, extract to Y track only moved about [00:25:00] two and a half inches.

Right. But then you multiply that distance over the time and the trajectory. You know, a decision you made here and you didn’t correct it and you didn’t correct it. And then pretty soon, you know, your luggage was one on one car and it’s an Oklahoma and you’re in Seattle and you’re going well, what happened?

I don’t understand, you know, 

Julie Bee – Host: what happened, 

Midroll Spot: right. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: No one wants to go to on I’m just kidding. But point being that, that if you don’t have good guardrails and someone in some way to keep checking in and to, and to bring you back to that true. And to say, you know, is this really in keeping with your mission?

Is this really in keeping with your values? Is this. Are you running off to the woods again because I’m, I love running off in the woods. There are shiny things out there. You know, 

Midroll Spot: Julie has spoken to countless organizations for 13 years on topics, including leadership management, employee engagement, and morale, workplace culture, small business ownership and entrepreneur.

If you’d like it, engage [00:26:00] a relatable and inspiring speaker for your next event, book, Julie, to speak to your group in more details@thejulieb.com. 

Julie Bee – Host: Hey, you’re listening to, they don’t teach this in business school. I’m Julie B and I’m here with Frank Schwartz today of G three L leadership and Frank, we were talking about burnout and your journey with that and kind of how you pulled yourself out of.

But I want to ask you today. How, how do you define success for yourself today? 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Very differently than I did even five years ago, for sure. You know, back then. I think that, and you know, it’s funny guys that I work with now and coach and whatever, I tell them all the time, I’m like, yeah. Okay. I get it. It’s your dad’s fault.

Right. And fine. But now it’s your response. And, you know, so I can blame it on my dad because he’s never satisfied with anything, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But success back then 100%. And I remember right before things really kind of [00:27:00] took a turn I was looking at, I was getting ready to put down payment on a house.

It was easily twice the size of twice as expensive as what I was currently living in. Why? No reason in the nicer part now the better neighborhood. And I guess the measurement of my. You know, was, was important there, you know, I mean, I, I remember these things clearly. So for me, it was very much chasing the, I don’t want to say chasing the dragon cause that’s a heroin thing, right?

You don’t want to kind of, you know, you’re kind of becoming intoxicated by this idea. Well, when I can prove to my dad that I’m successful, when I have to prove to everybody around me that I’m successful, then they’ll love me. Because look at all the things that I can do that look how successful and smart and strong and dedicated and, you know, Vaynerchuk that I am.

Right. And then, and then I’ll have their approval. And I’ll be, [00:28:00] I think if you’re asking that question, if you’re saying to yourself, and then I’ll be happy or then they’ll love it, then I’ll love my, you know, if there’s an, and then whatever that is, the thing is that you think is the end, then. Yeah. So you’re going to have to remove that and go, okay, what’s the real answer?

Like what’s the truth here? You know, the truth is I don’t love me and no matter what I do for these people, that either they love me, they don’t have nothing to do with, you know, whether they live in a big house or whether I have a, this, you know, $10 million plus business. Right. It wasn’t going to make any sense.

Well, 

Julie Bee – Host: I want to say my, the way that I, I have an and then except mine is I just have to get to something. Usually it’s like reaching a certain number or achieving a certain goal and then I’ll be successful. And so that’s another version 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: of that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That’s the end of that. Right. And so, yeah, so what’s success look like so 10, you know, 10 years ago or whatever, it was five years ago, six that’s what [00:29:00] success looked like.

It was acute. It was a revenue number. I loved the idea of having a big staff that was nice. You know, they bought me things on my birthday, see how they love me, you know, their, their boss. They’re not stupid. You know, they just like you to just. Trust me. This is, you know, they’re there. This is partially because they want you to be happy because when you’re happy, then they make more money too.

And that’s why I would say success. Now. In fact, we were just talking about this again a little bit, right before we started, like, I know that money is a necessity. I understand that as a concept, I like to have enough of it. I want to, you know, sufficient for my needs is the way I like to say it. Right. I want to meet my obligations, but I want to be able to save a little for the future.

You know, all those kinds of things, but I feel like that is my desire, not, I’m not saying, you know, if I was to make a whole ton of money, right. That I would be sad, but that is no longer the thing that I’m chasing. Right. So success [00:30:00] now I feel like is kind of gauging how much time am I able to spend serving and.

Lifting other people and working on what I believe to be my personal purpose. And when I’m working on my personal purpose, which I’ll share with you, candidly, is to help people remove self limiting beliefs so that they can find success in the areas of their influence. Right. All I want to do is, get those head trash that’s in your brain.

I want to help you figure out why that’s there. And then Messiah who decided, you know, They recognize that you can win. You don’t have 

Midroll Spot: to play like all this stuff 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: that they’ve told you for so long, you have to have this house and you don’t have to have this car and you have to do this and you have to do that.

And then they’ll love 

Midroll Spot: you. Right. And then, and then all the end, dens 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: is trash. Like if we can move past that, if I can help you understand for your life, how to get past the end then, and recognize that [00:31:00] you’re enough where right now you already have in you, your purpose, you already have. It’s there.

It’s been there since you were little, the things that you do now from a pattern perspective are very similar to what you did when you were 10. You know, I’ve told jokes. I went back and found old report cards. Julie, this is a true form like, you know, third, fourth grade. And the, in a box somewhere that, you know, I was cleaning up my parents’ house.

This was years ago and I was like, oh my gosh, this is like, you know, second, third, fourth grade. Right. I’m opening these things up and it’s like Frank would do better if you paid attention more. Oh, no kidding. Right, right. He tells a lot of jokes, you know, he’s very personable, 

Midroll Spot: but you know, right. That’s my life, man.

That’s been programmed since I was that old, you know, so. Okay. So instead of looking at that and 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: going well, that to them. That was a detriment. That was a problem because I was interrupting class all the time. Right. And now it’s probably one of my most valuable assets because it, [00:32:00] at the risk of sounding like I’m patting myself too hard on the back, but it’s one of those things that makes people feel instantly comfortable.

Yeah. You know, and, and the reason that I did it is because even 

Midroll Spot: then I knew we were all connected. I knew that. I knew that instinctively, 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: that we all this entire human family is exactly the same. You know, there is, there is nobody better or worse or whatever. I got it clouded for a good long time. You know, when I was Mr.

Accumulation, and that was up and down my nose going to bring those men with the custom pens back, I would like to buy more pens. 

Midroll Spot: It was a thing, right? Tell that tailor woman to come 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: back and measure me for more of my soup. You know, like that’s, I didn’t say it like that obviously, but that’s kind of how it was, 

Midroll Spot: that’s what you were thinking, right?

No, for real, you know, and I had, oh yeah. You know, the 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: offices that we had, I was like, we will, we will put wood here and build these things. Yes. We’ll make more of that, [00:33:00] you know, and right. Whatever it was. And I never said no to anybody, you know, they’re like, well, can we get that? Yeah, of course we can. We are rich.

We are amazing, you know, whatever. And once I, you know, you kind of get past. And you start realizing that no, that that’s that’s the lie. Right. Then, things start to change. I 

Julie Bee – Host: think that’s that whole fake it till you make it thing that so many people have been told to do. And there’s times where, I mean, you’re not going to go in and tell people your.

Sad story when you’re trying to make a sale, but so 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: much of the advice that makes the sale. 

Julie Bee – Host: So true. Yeah. So, so much advice I got when I first started was, well, you just have to fake it till you make it, because nobody’s going to do business with somebody who isn’t successful in business, which is such a lot of crap, because I think I’ve experienced the more vulnerable you are, the more people open up to you and.

You know, that just, I don’t [00:34:00] know. That’s just how I prefer to operate and business. I can’t fake it till you make a thing anymore. 

Midroll Spot: Well, you know, what it is is, is probably, 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: there’s probably a phase when that is smart. There’s probably a phase of business when that works and it makes sense to do that.

That’s fine. You know, I’m not mad at anybody who does that. I mean, I’m, I know I did it, you know, and maybe it was even necessary and we could say there’s a better way. And maybe there is maybe I wasn’t mature enough at that point to handle it. And the other way, you know what I mean? I don’t know, but it’s sure as hell isn’t a long-term strategy.

No, you know, 

Midroll Spot: I mean, you know, you don’t fake it for so 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: long. Right. And I think what you realize over time is the extent to which you fake it. Like, so, you know, if you’re a 10 on the fake meter, we’ve got a real problem. I mean, when we say fake it till you make it, I think it’s like, Hey look, Julia, what you don’t realize you’re already.

You can fake it to a seven for a little while. And then once you’re a seven, you know exactly what to do to get you to attend. Like you’ll, you’ll figure it out. You’re smart. You know what I mean? So if you [00:35:00] need Frank to get to a seven, just a little bit here and there, that’s fine. You know, don’t kill yourself over it.

But what we ended up doing is we hear that. Fake it till you make it. Got it. Uh, I’m an 11 

Midroll Spot: all the time. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Watch me go. You know, and it’s 

Julie Bee – Host: the answer to every question you could possibly ask me about my area of expertise. 

Midroll Spot: Yeah. And you’re right. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: And I know this for a fact because I can hear it in what you’re not saying.

And that is when, now that you look at people in now and go, Hmm, that’s a good question. I’ll be real honest. I think we can help. Let me do some 

Midroll Spot: work. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Hmm, you know, because that’s the truth, you know, in that situation. Right. So whatever it is that you’re doing now to be authentic, And we don’t mean it like this weird, you know, authentically becomes, you know, how people have to be authentic, which means I have to tell you what a terrible person, you know, I don’t know.

That’s, that’s not what that is. 

Julie Bee – Host: Some, well, sometimes people go there. Yeah. But 

Midroll Spot: ahead. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: But the point being, you know, when you are true to who you really are, and you’re actually living [00:36:00] yourself, you’ve figured yourself out more and you’re living to the best knowledge that you have of who you are and what you’re supposed to be doing.

And I’ll tell you what, it doesn’t matter. 

Midroll Spot: It. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Yeah, I feel like now I look in, and you know, when a client comes across the desk or somebody wants to work with me, it’s not in a, in an arrogant way. It was, you know, cause it was like, well, do you know what it takes to have me as your communications video genius, get over yourself.

But now it’s kind of like a, Hey look, I’d love to help. Here’s exactly. And I mean, down to the specifics, exactly what I do and exactly how I do it. And if you believe the same thing. How that ought to get done. Like if you can live with that idea and you kind of go, actually, that’s the approach I would like to take.

Awesome. Let’s do business. If you think for even a second, you’re not sure about that. I would love to refer you to someone who can help you better. Cause I just can’t do it. It won’t go well. Yeah. 

Julie Bee – Host: And that’s where knowing yourself and your core values comes into being a small [00:37:00] business owner because that’s where you get to is, you know, the clients you can do work for and do it well.

And you know, the clients that. Or prospects, you need to refer out. Same thing with, you know, a lot of employees, you know, when it’s time, what is time for them to go, or if it’s going to be a long-term relationship, because you just, you, you just get that sense of. You know, I don’t know how else to say 

Midroll Spot: it right now.

You do though. It’s like, it’s, it’s 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: ingrained and it kind of speaks in it. I was reading some of the things you were writing about burnout and stuff, even just, just before we got on and you know, this idea of saying yes to everything and that’s part of that fake it, right? Like, oh yeah, 

Midroll Spot: yeah, yeah. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Oh, yeah.

Yeah. We have to pass you for that. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem. No problem. You know, like we know how to do that again, 

Midroll Spot: probably. Okay. For the first few, you know? Yeah. You may fail a little, but that’s 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: okay. But it’s not a long-term strategy. And part of it is, you know, in my case, it might’ve been a little arrogance, maybe a little naivete, you know, whatever it may or may have been, or just, you know, a [00:38:00] weird distorted desire to help, even though I had no business trying to help, you know, whatever it was.

Right. But it, to your point, you know, that’s kind of the thing I kind of keep to that thing. Yeah. I say yes to everything because I don’t know myself. I don’t know what I’m good at. I don’t know who I’m supposed to be saying no to. I don’t know what kinds of clients I’m supposed to be avoiding because good heavens, there are some, you know, and, and that’s part of what leads to the burnout is we try and use this strategy long term and it just breaks us down.

Yeah, 

Julie Bee – Host: it absolutely does. So, Frank, I have one last question for you. What’s the one thing that you would recommend? Business schools teach future entrepreneurs. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: So I’ll say, wow, 

Midroll Spot: that’s a tough 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: one because again, not having been to business school, you have an MBA. You’re smart. Right? 

Julie Bee – Host: Let’s just, I mean, what’s the, what do you think is, well, I will say business school is very academic.

It’s very in the book. Some business schools are getting outside of that, but it’s still very in the book. 

Midroll Spot: [00:39:00] So I was gonna say, 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: you know, not having been whatever, but I’ve worked with enough people and know enough people who have and have learned some things. And I would say, I think the. And maybe this is the best way to answer it from, from my perspective, I think the thing that we seem to be missing the most and that, so it’s clearly not taught anywhere because if it wasn’t, I’d see more of it right out here in the world.

So I think the things that are missing the most are number one, you’re not so special and you’re not so smart. And you need to learn that you need to know. So that you can get the appropriate kind of help. And the kind of help that I need is different than the kind of help that Julie means because Julie used to be an accountant, you know, she has no problem with numbers, right?

Yeah. 

Midroll Spot: Frank is like, honey, did you balance the checkbook? Because I don’t have any idea what we’re even 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: talking about. You know, I’m aware that there’s this concept called a spreadsheet. I do not know how to use it. You know, I do not [00:40:00] know what it is for. So making sure that, you know, the kind of help that you need and recognizing that you are not the center of the universe and you’re not so smart, just because you got three little letters after your name doesn’t mean, you know, Jack squat about how to run a business or how to live a business, right.

Because if you’re going to do this, you’re going to start something on your own. You’re going to have to live a business. It’s not just owning it. It’s not just running it. You’re going to have at least. You know for sure. And I’ll tell you this, I thought, and I’ve known plenty of people or know of them. I don’t know that a lot of them personally, but you know, who run, you know, five and $600 million business, big, giant monster businesses who are still in it every single day.

And I’m like, shouldn’t, they have people, but they can’t help themselves because whatever they’re chasing, they haven’t found it yet. And. It ain’t a number. So that’s, that’s one thing. The other thing I would tell, I would say that they need to teach in business school is the most important thing. The [00:41:00] single most important thing to running a business, they’ll tell you.

I’m sure they tell you how important employees are. You know, all you got, you know, got treat them well. I’m sure to tell you some of that somewhere along the way, when you’re not reading spreadsheets and coming up with, you know, EBITDA, whatevers, you know, I don’t know if you like that. I slipped one in there.

Yeah. How about that? Sounds like I know what I’m talking about. I got 

Midroll Spot: you. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: But I think that the thing that they, that they need to teach at the most is again it’s and it’s related to the first one, right? You can’t do it alone. And so you need to learn that the people that are around you that are going to help you get, there are people that you have to learn to actually exhibit and, and love.

You have to learn to love them and to treat them like you love. I don’t mean romantically. We’re not talking about some kind of weird sexual harassment suit that we’re going to get now, you know, whatever, you know, no, right now we’re talking about 

Midroll Spot: time. Now. [00:42:00] 

Julie Bee – Host: We are not an HR consulting 

Midroll Spot: podcast. No, 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: not that, but you have to have such a genuine concern for other people and not put yourself first.

And that doesn’t just mean, you know, that you’re like, well, you know, I worked really late one night, you know, and I put an extra hours in a blah, blah, blah. I’m talking about an example. I’ll give you real quick as a Nucor steel, right? This was back in the day Tamiko days, the end Tamiko, when things got really crappy and it was like, oh, you know, the steel industry is not doing well.

And he said, look, everybody in friends and neighbors, everybody gets a pay cut, including me and everybody. And nobody got fired. Some people left, you know, and I’m sure accounted for some degree of treasure. Right. But, but everybody gets make, right. That’s the kind of stuff they don’t teach in business school because they would teach you, keep your salary now friends, you know, make sure the business is profitable.

But you know, you watch this little game that, you know, some of these [00:43:00] giant financial institutions that may or may not be called banks that may or may not be located in of America and how they, you know, at the end of every year, they have this massive dump of personnel. So the balance sheet looks, you know, stellar so that when earnings are reported, it’s like, look, you know, and stockholders are happy, right?

Oh yeah, sure. We fired 60,000 people, but I mean, you know, what a price went up, 

Julie Bee – Host: our S our earnings per share is where we, we met the goal. Like literally we had to do that to meet Eagle. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: Yeah. And maybe we’ll hire them back, you know, Q1 next year. So I’m like that, you know, whatever, I don’t know. But when you love, when you can run a business like that, but then you’re going to turn into a piece of crap business.

Yeah. I don’t know anybody. And I mean this sincerely, I don’t know anybody who goes, man, 

Midroll Spot: I am so glad I freaking 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: love this giant financial institution that may or may not be a bank that may or may not be end of America. You know, I don’t know anybody who says that there’s probably [00:44:00] some, you know, bound, anybody who said, but I’ll tell you what I know plenty of people who at the time, especially were like, I will give blood, sweat and tears in the course.

Because I know that I’m caring about, I know that I’m lying and I don’t know if they teach you that business school, but I don’t think they do, but I’ve found for myself, the people that I really poured into and I really loved those were the ones that believed, and those are the ones that pulled me out of my whole.

Julie Bee – Host: Yeah. And I know I am sure that they loved you too. I’m sure they did because 

Midroll Spot: they very appropriate way. Yes. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: In a very appropriate way. 

Julie Bee – Host: Well, Frank, listen, I’ve really enjoyed this conversation today and I know this is just the. This conversation has just been great. And I know the business owners listening are going to get a lot out of it.

And I just want to thank you again for being on the show. 

Frank Schwartz – Guest: I thank you for having me. I love talking about this stuff. I love talking to you and I, I would just, you know, you’ll, you can cut this if [00:45:00] you want. I don’t really care, but I have, I’ve watched, you know, you, you said you watched and seeing things from where you’re sitting on my end and, and I’ve done the same over here.

And I just love how I believe that you love and the way that you treat them. And I think it’s a huge asset to have. And I think it’s a huge asset to business owners and I’ve, I always blamed a lot out of being with you. So I, I just hope you keep doing what you’re doing. Kill it. 

Julie Bee – Host: Thank you. And that is it for this episode of, they don’t teach this in business school, but stay tuned because I’ll be back soon with more lessons learned on the business owner’s journey.