Kathleen Quinn Votaw episode updated

Advice & First Wins 

Listen to Kathleen’s experience as a business owner, how she started her consulting career and her big wins.



In this week’s show, Kathleen expands on her advise to future business owners, how she first launched her consulting career and her first win as a business owner.


[00:00:00] Julie: On today’s show, I talk with Kathleen Quinn Vota about straight up Going for it. Facing burnout regularly and often the courage required in business ownership and how you must let go in order to grow. I’m Julie. B. And they don’t teach this in business school, you can 

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[00:00:35] Kathleen: Hey 

[00:00:36] Julie: there, I’m Julie B and you’re listening to, they don’t Teach. This in Business School, a podcast where we discuss business ownership lessons that are learned through experience not in a classroom.

Today I’m really excited to interview Kathleen Quinn Vota, the owner and c e o of Talent Trust, and I’m so looking forward to this conversation because I know we are going to learn some very valuable business [00:01:00] ownership lessons today. Kathleen, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. 

[00:01:04] Kathleen: Thank you for having me.

I’m very excited about this discussion today and looking forward to talking to you. Great. 

[00:01:11] Julie: So Kathleen, just give us a brief overview of Talent, trust, and what you all do for your clients. Well, talent 

[00:01:19] Kathleen: Trust is a recruiting firm. I founded it about 20 years ago. We have about 23 people on the team. We work all over the United States, helping people in construction, engineering, manufacturing, healthcare, find the people they need to grow.

So, um, we are a recruiting company at our core. We also look Julie at the talent acquisition process and do some talent acquisition audits for our clients. Hmm. And some employee experience survey work so they can create the community that will attract the people they need to grow. 

[00:01:53] Julie: So you take a real holistic look at the entire process, not just focused on that one moment where you need to hire somebody.

[00:02:00] It’s the whole, you can look at the whole process for your clients. 

[00:02:03] Kathleen: Yeah. Our core, at our core is we want companies to get better. Mm-hmm. At retaining and recruiting people. So in order to have a good recruiting outreach plan, you’ve gotta be able to retain the people you have today. Mm-hmm. So if you’re not, if they’re not having a good experience while they’re working for you, likely that people won’t join you.

Mm-hmm. So we, we do take a holistic approach. We make sure we kinda look under the rug a little bit. You know, like we wanna make sure there’s nothing that the candidates who we bring to our clients, Might not enjoy while they’re there on their journey. Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:41] Julie: That makes sense. Kathleen, what is your favorite part about being a business owner?

[00:02:49] Kathleen: Well, when I started Julie, I wanted to be free. It’s like Freedom Willis Wall, William Wallace, freedom. You know, when Mel Gibson is laying [00:03:00] and getting murdered, he’s screaming freedom. So that’s, that’s one. Not to be overly dramatic, no, but you know, not, you know, I didn’t fit, I didn’t realize I didn’t fit corporate America.

Until I was in my early thirties. Mm-hmm. And I probably didn’t fit from the beginning, but I had some really good mentors and managers who just would leave me to my own devices. Mm-hmm. But then it, you know, I love the freedom to work with whom I’d like to. Mm-hmm. When I like to where I’d like to, how I’d like to.

Yeah. And I get joy from working with clients who are just. Really interesting, and they truly want to build a better organization, and they truly want to create an environment where their people will grow and thrive. Mm-hmm. Now, there’s a lot of recruiting companies out there that provide butts and seats.

Mm-hmm. We’re not that firm. Like [00:04:00] if you want Butts and Seeds, there’s so many other firms you can go to. Mm-hmm. But if you wanna fix the overall issue, we’re probably the better choice. 

[00:04:09] Julie: Mm mm Yeah, and that’s, there’s so many businesses that need that at all levels. You know, there’s, you said, looking under, under the rug a little bit, and I’m curious, how do you.

When you’re, when you’re doing that type of work for a client, there has to be a part where before you even get to that, you’re, you’re going through a client selection process to make sure that mm-hmm. The client is going to, one, let you do that and two, yeah. Respond in a way, you know, take action on your advice, um, within, you know, the, the reason within reason in terms of their own budget and, and, and stuff that they have to work with.

So how do you, how do you make sure that you are getting. The right clients that we’ll do will do those things with you. 

[00:04:52] Kathleen: Yeah. We go through discovery with our clients. Mm-hmm. You know, kind of simple conversation, just like we’re having Julie. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What do you think [00:05:00] you need? Yeah. Where, what brought you to the conversation in the first place?

Mm-hmm. What, what do you perceive as broken? Mm-hmm. Um, because usually we come in through, A CEO or a key leader who’s heard me speak or read my book or heard from somebody else, and something’s not quite right. Mm-hmm. And so it really is a process of, let me listen to what you, what you’re struggling with, and if we are a good fit, then we can certainly.

Help you, but if we’re not a good fit, we can refer you to the right firm that could help you because I mean, client. Mm-hmm. Engagement, just like employee engagement. You know, customer selection is as important as an employee selection. You know, you don’t wanna get it wrong. So our phases are a dis initial discovery conversation listening to the needs.

And sometimes we’re not gonna be a good [00:06:00] fit. Yeah. Also, if they, as I said before, if they don’t want to fix the community mm-hmm. That they’re building and why people might be, if there’s a high attrition, for example, and they don’t care about it, they’re probably not a good fit. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, and there’s natural attrition.

Mm-hmm. So I’m not saying, you know, All attrition is not bad. Mm-hmm. But if you don’t give a shit about attrition, yeah. We’re probably not gonna be a good fit. 

[00:06:29] Julie: Definitely not. I, yeah. I, I can’t imagine you working with, with a, with a CEO or founder or company, a leader who just doesn’t care if, if people are coming and going because I.

That’s a really, I mean, one that’s very expensive and two, what are they even, they shouldn’t even be in that role if they don’t care. It’s true. 

[00:06:46] Kathleen: Yeah. We worked with a restoration company that will go nameless. Mm-hmm. And we had brought in about 50 people to the organization. Mm-hmm. And we were noticing after about six months attrition of [00:07:00] the people we had brought in.

So, you know, we. Polish up ourselves. We go into a meeting and we are presenting this data that we were concerned that the people we were play, we were bringing into the organization weren’t staying. Mm-hmm. And that was only like six to eight months into our engagement. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, we, we have no control over the environment we went to.

Mm-hmm. So, The, the owner really didn’t care. Mm-hmm. And so we had to fire the client because it was, the client was focused on, well, you’re not sending us the right candidates. I’m like, but you made a hiring decision to hire them. Yeah. And then they’re telling us, You stink when they actually get there. So, you know, so you can, it’s to as transference of accountability, it’s really easy.

And I’m [00:08:00] sure anybody in recruiting listening to this, it is so easy to blame the recruiter. Mm-hmm. You know, well, the recruiter, recruiter sent me a shitty person. Mm-hmm. No, you, you selected someone who didn’t fit your organization. You made the hiring decision. You did not look at your environment that you put them into.

You didn’t have the right onboarding. There’s so many pieces to the pie, you know? Yeah. As entitled, your podcast, they didn’t teach you that in business school. Mm-hmm. No. There’s so many facets to bringing someone into the company. Yeah. That people 

[00:08:37] Julie: miss. Yeah. So, Kathleen, switching gears here a little bit.

You’ve, you’ve been in business for just, just a little while and, uh, one thing that I would really be interested in knowing is what, looking back, what do you think has been your biggest win as a business owner? Hmm, 

[00:08:55] Kathleen: well, a that I actually could be. I mean, so in [00:09:00] 20 2003. I was fired from my, my position. I had just gotten through treatment on thyroid cancer.

I was a new mom. Hmm. It was a really difficult time, and then I was unceremoniously a asked to exit stage, right? Mm. Because, mm-hmm. They thought I was out too much with the cancer treatment and the new baby. Yeah. And so, which, you know, was probably, you know, accurate but not very empathetic at all. Mm-hmm.

And you know, the first couple, the first year, Julie was all about, can I take care of my family? Mm-hmm. Because when you boil it down to the basic need, we all work. To take care of our families. Mm-hmm. Whatever your definition of family is. Mm-hmm. It doesn’t matter what your definition it is to provide for the people we love.

And that’s why I started my business. I wanted to provide for the people I [00:10:00] love. So first lesson was, I could do it. Mm-hmm. That was the biggest win the first year when we were profitable our very first year and had real green dollars that went into the bank. Yeah. And, and we, I mean, it was remarkable.

Yeah. And I wondered why I never did it before. Yeah. What was, what did I wait for? I wish I did it and I’m sure you hear this a lot. I wish I did it earlier. 

[00:10:26] Julie: Oh yeah, yeah. That’s a common thread of, of just do it, you know, progress over perfection. I think we all get stuck in the. There’s so many things.

There’s imposter syndrome, there’s analysis paralysis, there’s just flat out fear. A lot of those are just mm-hmm. Around fear of failure. Mm-hmm. But at the end of the day, I’m actually teaching a class to new, new business owners of all things. I guess it makes sense, but my, the very first lesson I wrote on the board progress, not perfection.

And I’m just like, I keep like pounding that into their braids. Cause I’m like, this is what actually matters. That you’re [00:11:00] doing the work, that you’re taking steps, you know, you will learn. As you go in some ways and other ways, you know, there’s times to seek professional help in terms of, you know, lawyers and CPAs and all of that.

Of course. But right now, in this minute, what matters is that you take a step towards, mm-hmm. Actually launching your business, and I give them homework. I’m like, okay, go to a networking event. That’s your homework. They have homework from the material, but I’m also like, go to the net, go to one networking event and tell people what you do.

That’s it. Like just start Yeah. Talking about what you do and go, go out there and be a business owner. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So 

[00:11:36] Kathleen: totally agree. Yeah. Step number one, right? Mm-hmm. Step number one, have you ever seen that movie Finding Nemo? Yes. Dory. And all she does is say, just keep swimming. Just keep, just keep rolling.

So that could be, you could bring on a little Dory. Yeah. I feel like just keep swimming, you know? You have to. Forward motion [00:12:00] constantly. Mm-hmm. And there’s so many things that can derail you, including yourself. Mm-hmm. So I love that progress over perfection. I’m gonna steal it from you because it’s a more mature way to say, just keep swimming.

[00:12:13] Julie: Yeah. It, depending on the audience. Sometimes I think the, just keep swimming work would work better. But yeah. It’s just, and I mean, I have to remind myself of that, one of the things that, as you were talking about, your, your biggest success, I feel like. Every year you make it through as a business owner or you sur even if it’s, I mean, some years it is survival and you hope for more years of thriving than surviving, but there are, there are seasons where you are just surviving and I feel like every year is, everything’s a win.

When you’re doing that, you know, every year you make it as a business owner, I feel like at on sub levels is, is is a win. And when you’ve been doing it for 20 years, it’s. I can’t even imagine how many other wins you’ve had, but I get that completely 

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[00:13:15] Julie: Hey, this is Julie V and you’re listening to, they Don’t Teach This In Business School. I’m here with ca, Kathleen Quinn Vota, and we’re talking about all things business and about things she’s learned on her journey over the past 20 years.

So Kathleen, one thing I wanted to ask you about though is burnout and have you ever experienced it as a business owner? And if you are open to sharing that story, I’d, I’d love to hear it. 

[00:13:39] Kathleen: Yes. Regularly and often it’s the short answer. Yeah. You know, it’s exhausting to, you know, this, this courage, I mean, your progress over perfection and might just keep mm-hmm.

Just keep swimming reference. It’s the courage to keep moving forward and sometimes you, you don’t have the [00:14:00] internal. Resources to do so. Mm-hmm. It is. It is true when they say it’s lonely at the top because the buck stops with you. There were times I couldn’t tell people how scared I was, you know, how frightened I was about taking a loan, which was made a lot of the difference in growing the company.

How scared I was about being able to provide for my customers when I finally started to succeed through other people. Cuz it’s your, when you start out, it’s your brand, you’re mm-hmm. You’re selling, you’re servicing, you know? Mm-hmm. So you’re in kind of, it’s a contained. Situation. Mm-hmm. But then you start inviting, now I have 24, 25 people that I, I have to trust, I have to take my hands off the wheel and mm-hmm.

And let them do and get out of the way. That is terrifying. It’s a terrifying moment because you’re [00:15:00] not, you can’t be everywhere. Mm-hmm. But in order to grow, you must let go. You must let go in order to grow and. I remember one time we were, we were serving a client and something went wrong. The client called me to complain about somebody who worked with me.

Mm-hmm. And I called my sister Eileen, and I was sitting on one side of my bed with a bottle of wine, crying my heart out, saying, I’m working so hard and mi me, me, me. Mm-hmm. And it was, I, I just really didn’t think I had the internal fortitude to keep moving forward. Yeah. And she said, You have about 24 hours for your little pissy party and then move on.

Mm-hmm. I’m like, okay. You know? So yeah. We need people in our life who will let us cry. Mm-hmm. Let us be mad, sad. Have our, my husband calls it a hot cry. If you have a hot cry, you know, like you’re, you know, [00:16:00] ugly cry. Like anybody 

[00:16:02] Julie: who’s done that knows exactly what that is. 

[00:16:04] Kathleen: Yes. Yeah. Like an awful cry. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. And then you just, you know, you gotta, you know, you don’t have the promise of tomorrow. Nobody does. And I’ve learned that since I’m a cancer survivor, many people don’t have that gift that I was given through that and mm-hmm. So, so yes, I have down days. Yes, I’m disappointed, but the, the joy of getting up and moving forward and the gift of today, I can overcome anything with all the friends I’ve met along the way.

Mm-hmm. All the mentors. So the, you know, it’s gonna be Bet the sun will come out tomorrow. Yeah. I think in lyrics, Julie, just so you know. Yeah. I’m a weirdo, I think in lyrics, but it will come out and you’ll be okay. Yeah. 

[00:16:51] Julie: One thing I have learned in business is I. Everything is a little bit brighter the next morning.

I think that’s kind [00:17:00] of what you’re saying. I mean, I have been through some really, we all have. I mean, we have those hard days and yes, we do have those. My, my partner and geez, my therapist, thankfully, they also kick me in the butt, but they give me the space to just have my moment. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, Remind me that, yeah.

Okay. You can do this too. You’ve done so many other things, you are going to be okay here. But I ha I mean, I literally, when you were saying that, I was thinking about those hard days and, and the nights when I would fall asleep and then in the morning, I, it, it always feels a little bit better the next day, even if, even if the problem isn’t fixed.

It’s like you have this new perspective and you’re like, I, I’m still getting up and getting to do what I wanna do. Mm-hmm. I have that freedom every morning to, to go and work, and yes, I have to, gosh, I have to have that hard meeting with that person today, but I’m also gonna get to do all of these amazing things that I love to do.

Like how great is that? So that perspective, like giving yourself that beat, that moment of [00:18:00] have the hot cry. Feel a little bit, sorry for yourself for a minute, but know that it’s gonna be better, you know? Mm-hmm. If it’s not the next day, the next day it will be better. I really believe that business owners need to hear that more, cuz it, it, it, it’s very hard 

[00:18:14] Kathleen: sometimes.

There’s, there’s a little book by Charles Fred called The 24 Hour Rule, and I think you know what you’re talking about, Julie and what I referenced, it’s give yourself some space mm-hmm. To grieve for whatever it was, and then keep moving forward. Mm-hmm. It’s really what you gotta do. I, I love that book. I learned it as a hockey mom too.

Yeah. You weren’t allowed to yell at the referees or the coaches for 24 hours. To any hockey coach out there who met me as a hockey mom, you know, I, I I wanted to yell at you, but I kept walking. 

[00:18:50] Julie: Yeah. And it, you know, it’s interesting you bring that up because I was just thinking about how, in that, in that position, you feel like there’s somebody who’s treating [00:19:00] your, your child.

Incorrectly poorly, whatever, or not, not fairly, whatever the case may be. My parents had to do the same thing with me with basketball. So like I, I’ve heard stories as I’ve gotten older, but in, in some ways you also have to have that. I feel like you sometimes have to have that boundary with your, with your team as well.

So you may wanna go, so a client may mistreat somebody on your team, and I mean, there’s obviously varying levels to this and professionalism and all of that, but it may be something that. You need to take 24 hours and. Let your team, let your employee actually handle the situation. Mm-hmm. And, and, and support them in handling it because that’s how they grow.

That’s how you grow. Instead of you jumping in, being, you know, the, the, the hockey bob and yelling at the client who said something that was not very nice or. You know, something that you felt was unwarranted in that moment. Giving yourself 24 hours to take a break from that too, I think is probably good advice.


[00:19:57] Kathleen: really, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been very [00:20:00] powerful in my life and in my business, my personal life and business 

[00:20:03] Julie: life. Hmm. Just fantastic. 

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[00:20:29] Julie: Hey, you’re listening to, they Don’t Teach This In Business School. I’m Julie B and I’m here with Kathleen Quinn, Vota of Talent Trust. And we are just talking about all of the things, all of the lessons in business ownership.

Kathleen, one thing I love to ask business owners is how do you define success? 

[00:20:48] Kathleen: Oh, well, that, you know, for, for me, it’s making sure I can provide for my family. Mm-hmm. That’s number one. And. It’s the relationships that I have. [00:21:00] So it’s not the money in the bank. Mm-hmm. It’s when I, when I see the joy other people have, when I do something or succeed at something, there’s so many people that have contributed.

To where I am today. Mm-hmm. It’s almost like they’re on the journey with me. Yeah. Every single moment. And they’re more excited than maybe even I am about certain things and there’s kind of this mutual joy when good things happen. Mm-hmm. Um, really good story about that is one of my very first bosses ever, Ronnie Moton at Danny Robertson employment.

She is still a friend of mine. She has been a very informative leader, very successful woman in her own right. And she’ll see things out there posted in, you know, digital marketing land and mm-hmm. She’ll say, you know, [00:22:00] I knew you were gonna do something big. I knew you were gonna do something meaningful.

And that brings me great joy. Mm-hmm. And my, my father had a phrase, Shoot for the moon. If you get halfway there, I’ll be proud of you. Mm. And so the definition of success for me is through his lens, cuz I’m still shooting for the moon and it just, you know, I. It’s never over. I don’t, I don’t feel like I’m a success.

I feel like I work really hard and I, I get great joy from the recognition I get. Mm-hmm. But I learned a ton from my mother and father that, you know, success, fame is very fleeting. Mm-hmm. You know, I get joy from each day and the work I do. Like I’m in Raleigh, North Carolina today and. I had such a remarkable morning speaking to these business owners and leaders, [00:23:00] and they started with this emotional significant event and I was almost devastated after the first 45 minutes.

Cause they were just, they worked to have a great life and they shared so much. So it was the honor of being in that room. I guess. I guess the gist of my long-winded answer, Julia, is it’s not any one thing. Mm-hmm. And I don’t think I’m. My success is being with other people and sharing joy mm-hmm. In what we’re doing together and doing good work together.

That’s when I feel the most successful. Yeah. 

[00:23:37] Julie: And is that helpful? Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean, there’s relationships and the joy that comes along with sharing, you know, the, the wins, all of the things you just said are so. Yeah, I mean I, the one thing that I, you know, we, there’s an exercise that you, people tell you to do to basically what would you want, basically write your eulogy, right?

What would you want [00:24:00] people to say about you at your funeral? And the one thing that I always think about is like that I, in some way left a positive impact or, you know, had made a positive impact on the people who. Interacted with, interacted with me, whether it was one time or a hundred times like that, I had what, and positive impact can be defined in a lot of different ways.

It’s not just business. Sometimes I, I mean, I, I had a conversation with somebody a few weeks ago who is, who start, who wanted us to start a business but is going through some really hard life stuff. And I said, listen, life happens. And you’ve gotta have, you’ve gotta your head, your ha you have to be in the right head space to start a business.

So, While I’m all about progress over perfection right now, the, the, the progress is, you know, one day at a time in your life because her, what’s going on in her life is, is, you know, we’ll change her life for the rest of her life. So, And she, she contacted me and said that that was so impactful and she’s, you know, while she’s going [00:25:00] through what she’s going through, she’s like, I can’t stop thinking about my business and I know I’m going to, I’m gonna, when I come out of this, I’m going to be even better and be even more prepared to go.

So, yeah. Mm-hmm. It’s just, those relationships are so crucial and it’s those, those are the relationships that, you know, you mentioned being lonely at the top and how that’s a real thing. Those you have to be vulnerable to get. To get what you, what you, when you need. When you’re in that lonely space, you have to be willing to be vulnerable.

But what I’ve found is when you open up to like your really trusted people in those groups, they will lift you up and help and encourage you and make whatever challenging thing you’re going through a little bit easier and yeah, that’s just fantastic. Do you have, is that, how, is that one of the ways you deal with the loneliness at the top?

Just having that support group? 

[00:25:48] Kathleen: Totally. I’m a, I think I told you Julie, I’m a member of great organization called Vistage Worldwide. Mm-hmm. And I’ve been a member for 15 years and it has made all the [00:26:00] difference. Mm-hmm. And having, not being the only once a month I go and I get to talk about what’s important to me as the leader.

We’re also busy leading. Mm-hmm. We forget to stop and think about what we need as leaders. So it gives me a, it gives me a. Pause. Mm-hmm. And I can look, you know, work on the business versus in the business one time a month. It’s really a gift. Wonderful to do. 

[00:26:26] Julie: And it is. And if you don’t schedule that working on the business instead of in it, I find that you just don’t get to it.

So you, you know, having that accountability and that’s, that schedule helps a lot. That’s one thing I also tell business owners to do, like, make sure you’re doing that. And have some way to have accountability around it, whether it’s you’re paying for it, so you better show up or you have, you know, a business partner who helps hold you accountable.

For sure. So Kathleen, you know, one, one thing you, you’ve talked a lot about is the team. Talk about a little bit about. What you are [00:27:00] proudest of your team for, you know, maybe in the past year. Is there anything that stands out in terms of what your team has accomplished over the past year that you’re really proud of?

[00:27:09] Kathleen: They’re, they’re constantly improving the organization. Mm-hmm. So one of our core values is to be, uh, Very curious and challenged the status quo. Hmm. So they’re very curious and they’re challenging the status quo. One of my team members built a new training program. Um, we brought in a new revenue officer to our organization.

Mm-hmm. And boy, Roger is challenging everybody about how they think about marketing and sales. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So they’re, I’m really proud of their, Willingness to grow and reach. Mm-hmm. And one of my favorite things they ever, they ever did for me is they, they wrote me a love letter once. Hmm. It was right after the pandemic.

And we kept it, we kept the band together, we kept everybody together, [00:28:00] everybody employed. And, and that was the greatest gift for me that they saw help. You know, our company is a great little company and. We stand by our values, you know, we do the right thing. Even when it’s hard. We’re challenge each other.

We we’re so, we speak the truth. We do the truth. We challenge each other. They’re, they’re just amazing human beings. Mm-hmm. And I’m so honored they choose me. I just got a note yesterday from John Logo on my team. Mm-hmm. And. It was his little baby girl who’s adorable by the way, and she’s hold holding up like a talent trust.

K Q V speaks coaster and the pen. And she was going to work with daddy. Mm-hmm. And so he took a picture and said, I thought, I thought you might like this. I thought you might enjoy this. And then I got another note from Jennifer Turner on my team and she said, I just wanna thank you cuz I know you have to leave your house.

Every other week to go, ma build our company. And I wanted to [00:29:00] thank you for all the work you’re doing on our behalfs. So I think they get that we’re, we’re not, we’re working for each other’s families. Yeah. We’re working our, all the work we put in isn’t for my pocketbook. Mm-hmm. It’s for their pocketbook.

Mm-hmm. It’s for, to have a company where you can work remotely and virtually. Be a full, you know, be a full human being. Mm-hmm. You can go exercise, you can go for the run, you can go ride the bike, you can go be a mom. You can make the pot roast. Go paint a picture. I don’t care. Do whatever you wanna do.

Yeah. But you can also be intellectually curious and grow with your career and. It’s, I’m working for them, they’re working for me. We’re working as a team to move our lives forward, and I think that’s where the magic 

[00:29:51] Julie: happens. That is, that is great. Working as a team to move all of your lives forward. That is really, that’s really special, [00:30:00] man.

I’m taking a note of that right now, actually, as we’re sitting here. 

[00:30:04] Kathleen: Well, I learned it from them, Julie. Yeah. I mean, I was. Anybody listening to this who might have worked for me when I was in my thirties and forties? I apologize. I’m sorry. I know I was a turd. I didn’t always know, but I mean, here’s the thing.

We’re all a work in progress. Mm-hmm. Every single person is learning every day. If you’re open to learn and. I was not the best version of myself a decade ago. Mm-hmm. I feel like I’m a better version of myself now, but I got more work to do. Julie, I’m, there’s there, what did you say? Progress over perfection.

Yeah, honey. I’m just, I’m just, there’s no perfection here For sure. But if you know I’m better than I was. Mm-hmm. And I can admit that. And I can say, I’m [00:31:00] sorry. I’m sorry. I was, if I was a bird or a jerk, I’m sorry. I still love you. Sorry. Because, you know, we don’t always get it right. I think the, the thing they never teach you in, you know, business school is the leadership that you work with and for mm-hmm.

Always know what they’re doing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We’re just human beings and sometimes we don’t know. Mm-hmm. But we’re stuck at saying we don’t know. 

[00:31:29] Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes, and sometimes to that point, your, your team doesn’t like, really needs to hear something other than, I don’t know. And there’s, you know, there’s a balance.

I’m learning that in some ways right now, that there’s a balance to. You have to be able to say that though sometimes, because you’ve gotta say that versus, yeah. What’s the option? Either not saying anything or just straight up not saying the truth, which those, [00:32:00] neither of those are, are options. So sometimes you do have to say, I don’t know.

And, and the team has to believe in you enough to bed, bed on you and trust you and, and yeah, I think that’s something that’s constantly being, being good enough for that, I think being, mm-hmm. Being that type of leader, that that work never stops and you’re always improving. The boss that I was five years ago, I, I want, I should apologize to the people who worked for me five years ago cause I, but I’m, I’m a lot better now than I was and five years from now I know I’ll be a lot better than I am today.

So, as I think if you, if you know that you’re. You’re on the, at least the right path as a leader for sure, because that’s just that self-reflection piece. Oh man. Totally agree. So, so good. Well, Kathleen, listen, as we’re coming to the end of this conversation, I ask this question to all, all the people I interview on here.

If you were going to teach a course, and if you were to teach a course to potential business owners, people who were thinking about starting a [00:33:00] business but weren’t quite sure about it, what’s one thing, what’s the one main thing you would want them to learn from you? 

[00:33:06] Kathleen: Just go for it. Just go for it. You’re gonna fail.

Yeah. You’re just gonna fail. At some point. You’re gonna make a mistake. Just go for it. Yeah. What are you waiting for? Yeah, what are you waiting for? I mean, if you have a dream, you know, it’s kind of your job to go get it. Nobody’s gonna give it to you. I don’t care who you are, where you’re from, nobody’s given you a free ride.

Mm-hmm. You have to go grab it. Yeah. Hang on and fight for it.

[00:33:45] Julie: I am taking a deep breath cuz I feel like, I’m like, all right, I’m inspired. I’m gonna go do it. I don’t, I know I, you’re speaking to me about certain things that I’m not gonna talk about on here, but there are some things going on in my life, like I’m going for it. So Kathleen, oh my gosh, this has [00:34:00] been just a joy of a conversation.

I am so grateful for your time on here, and I know the business owners who are listening are going to just get so much from this interview. I want to thank you again for being here today. 

[00:34:13] Kathleen: My pleasure, Julie, and best to you and all your listeners for now and always, 

[00:34:19] Julie: and that’s it for this episode. But stay tuned because I’ll be back with more or lessons learned on the business owner’s journey.

I’m Julie B and they don’t teach this in business school.