[00:00:00] Julie Bee – Host: On today’s episode, I talk with Tatiana Sawyer about unlimited earning potential disrupting traditional business models and why she’d teach psychology to future entrepreneurs. I’m Julie B, and they don’t teach this In business school.
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[00:00:35] Julie Bee – Host: Hey there, I’m Julie B and this is, they Don’t teach This in Business School. On this podcast, we discuss the behind the scenes of being a business owner. Today’s episode is going to be a really good one because I get to interview Tatiana Sawyer, the founder of The Bold Method, and I know we’re gonna have a fun conversation about some of the lessons she has learned along her own business ownership journey.
So, Tatiana, [00:01:00] welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today. . Thanks
[00:01:03] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: so much, Julie. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:05] Julie Bee – Host: Yeah. So the first question, just, just give us an overview of you and your business and you know, what you do for the people you work with. Awesome.
[00:01:15] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: Yeah, I mean, I actually have several businesses, which is pretty expected.
If you, if you know me personally, you would, you would know, you would not be surprised. But my primary business at the moment is boutique tax and accounting firm where I work with business owners. To help them build a better business, get all of their needs taken care of, like bookkeeping, accounting, and all of those things.
And of course, file taxes, but also proactively save on taxes. Right? My second business, which is the Bold Method, is a business advisory, consulting and coaching business where I work with business owners to help them triple their profits using no cost strategies, meaning no, no additional advertising spend, and things like that so that they can live the life they.
[00:02:00] and I’m really passionate about that. not really passionate, hard to be passionate about taxes. Right. . I hear ya. Yeah, and I’m also an author and speaker and so I speak professionally and I am working on my second, well, second and a half book. I have an ebook that’s a business strategy specifically. I have one published book that’s a physical book and I’m working on my third book, so to.
[00:02:22] Julie Bee – Host: Tatiana, you, you obviously love being a business owner, so I wanna ask you, what is your favorite part about being an entrepreneur?
[00:02:31] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: My favorite part is the time freedom and also unlimited earning potential. Mm-hmm. . Um, because, you know, as a mom, as a parent, it’s important for me to be. available when there’s a snow day or a sick day, or any of the above , and so I’ve certainly enjoyed not having to go somewhere and pretend I’m working or anything like that.
Mm-hmm. , you know? Mm-hmm. , especially when we talk about working for accounting firms. Mm-hmm. . . [00:03:00] So I’ve certainly enjoyed that. And also when you work for yourself, there’s really no limit as to how much you can make. And so that’s also my, one of my favorite parts. Kind of
[00:03:11] Julie Bee – Host: on the heels of that, I, I, I know one thing that you probably see often with your, with your clients and maybe even you struggle with yourself, are certain.
Tasks that business owners tend to do that they have a hard time getting off their plate is, are there any specific roles or functions that you’ve found either in yourself or with some of your clients that seem to be particularly difficult to delegate or to outsource?
[00:03:36] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: I think it has to do with mindset, but at least for me, it has been.
Okay. And for some of my clients as well, I had this thought that if I hire people, my husband used to say, cuz he used to manage big teams and at work, and he used to say that when you hire people, their problems become your problems. . Mm-hmm. . And so I kind of took that seriously and I. Thought, you know, like I don’t [00:04:00] want to hire anyone.
But then about six years into my building, my accounting practice, which I’ve stopped, meaning that I’m no longer taking on clients and stuff. Mm-hmm. in the accounting practice, because I focus more on being the advisor and consultant and coach. Kind of six, six years into it, I. Was doing everything including the TOMA campaign, so top of mind awareness.
So when you mail a handwritten card to person or a flyer or whatever, I used to do everything. And then when I hired my first admin, you know, my fear was, and I think it, it, I can relate to non-accounting business owners that my fear was that I will be on the hook for, for expense, right? Mm-hmm. . But then when I, what I’ve realized that it’s.
That much. I’ve hired someone at $20 an hour who learned in the process bit that first week when we had an agreement, and I gave her all of the Jim Ron’s book, which is what I send for prospective clients and all of those things. I [00:05:00] felt so, so good . Mm-hmm. to not have to do that anymore and. It was liberating.
And I think that that’s, that’s kind of that moment when you’re afraid because you now have to pay someone you’re afraid that maybe you’re not gonna have enough or you run out of money or whatever. But I think that that’s important to, to catch yourself when you’re thinking that way and. Realize how much time you can free up and do other things.
[00:05:27] Julie Bee – Host: Well, and to your point about one of your, you know, favorite parts of being a business owner is the unlimited, you know, wealth or, or income potential. I think you have to get to a point though, to, to, to have that. You, you, there comes a point where you, you have work that you have to delegate no matter, no matter what.
I mean, you can correct me if I’m wrong in that, but I feel like there’s only so far you can go. by yourself. And you know, to get to that unlimited point, I feel like you have to have a, a team, team behind you get helping you get
[00:05:56] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: there. Yeah. And I think when, when we talk about a [00:06:00] team, people get some sometimes scared and I, I know because I felt the same way.
Mm-hmm. , but people get scared. Oh, a team that sounds expensive. , , and. But it actually doesn’t have, you know, the team doesn’t mean it’s full-time people working for you. You’re paying a payroll tax and all of those things. Yeah. You can hire freelancers for a certain task, like a copywriter or mm-hmm. Uh, an admin or executive assistant.
And, and that could be five hours a week, that could be 10 hours a month, you know, things like that. And it doesn’t, it doesn’t become as expensive as you would think. And I think that that’s probably one of the things that people. Fear when they think about hiring somebody else and having help in their business.
But like you said, there’s always gonna be a limit as how much you can make because mm-hmm. , usually when you’re in business by yourself, there is a limited time, the limited hours in a day and a limited hours in a week. And, and I’ve been practicing structured weeks for, [00:07:00] for the last two, three years.
Mm-hmm. , and it’s been really helpful. And the beauty of it is that I keep Mondays and. Open so that I get a chance to connect with colleagues and maybe ask some questions or answer some questions, and I get a chance to, let’s say, have a snow day or a sick day and re reschedule things around it. But when you are, when it’s just you working in the business, you will never be free.
Mm-hmm. , because, especially like from someone who is an accountant, right? Accountants are known for hourly rates and all of those things. Now there’s, there’s been sort of a movement the past five 70 years maybe for value billing. Which sounds great on the surface, but how do you actually implement it?
That’s the problem. Yeah. And then again, your hours are limited during the day. , if you can, um, outsource, and by outsource, I don’t mean outsource internationally or to people you don’t know, but by hiring someone part-time or as needed, be hourly basis, you can free yourself up and create systems and processes so that you can [00:08:00] make more without spending more time and utilize resources.
Which really brings me back to this point that, you know, This is something that’s going to be in my Ted, I’m having a TEDx talk in a, in a, in a month, actually less than a month. But I had a conversation with a client of mine who’s an extremely talented c e O of a business, and he said to me, accountants don’t start businesses, visionaries do.
And I think he’s absolutely right because accountants, doctors, engineers, lawyers, all call what they do a practice, not a business. Mm-hmm. A business mindset is when you create systems processes, you use other people’s time as a resource to make more, more profit. And it’s a beautiful thing. It doesn’t mean you’re operating a sweat shop, but it does mean that you, you hire people, you give people jobs and ability to.
To work and there’s plenty of, I know moms who would love to not have a full-time job, but still make some money on a regular basis. And so I think there is benefit and win-win actually for everyone. If you [00:09:00] do hire other people to help you.
[00:09:02] Midroll Spot: Every week, Julie sends out big ideas and easy actions that help elevate your business.
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[00:09:19] Julie Bee – Host: Hey, this is Julie B and you’re listening to, they Don’t Teach This In Business School. I’m here today with Tatiana Sawyer. We were just talking about some of the elements of delegating and, and the, and teams and all of that that goes into business.
But I wanna shift gears a little bit, Tatiana, and ask you what has been your biggest win as a business
[00:09:42] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: owner? My biggest win as a business owner has been working two days, maybe one and a half days a week. in my tax business, which allowed me to write a book, which allowed me to become a speaker, trained as a speaker, really creating a schedule that [00:10:00] works while quadrupling my, my income.
Mm-hmm. , I think that’s probably my best win because as accountants we often neglect our families and things like that, and I’ve certainly done my share of that. Mm-hmm. over the years, but, but it’s a priority always has been. It’s. I got the tools that I needed to make it work, and now I feel that that’s my biggest win.
Being able to be there for my family, for my kids when they need me. That’s really the biggest win in business that anyone can have because business is personal. . Well, and
[00:10:27] Julie Bee – Host: that’s, I mean, that’s the reason a lot of people go into business to begin with, is to have flexibility of time. And a lot of, a lot of times that’s to be able to be more available to, to family.
So I think, yeah, the fact that you’ve been able to achieve that is, is pretty impressive. So on the flip side of that, I, I like to ask if you, you know, back, if you look back over your time as a business owner, is there any decision that you’ve made that maybe you. would change or, or do differently now that you are [00:11:00] where you are today?
[00:11:01] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: I think my biggest holdback in business has been. me, like my, my own, I, I got into in, in my own way. Mm-hmm. . And here’s what I mean by that. When I started out in my accounting, in my tax career, I was a bookkeeper before I became a tax accountant for five years, maybe, actually probably even six years, I don’t remember.
But I remember working for a c CPA farm and. . You know, we have these Saturdays and I said, well, what’s the like, let me allow me to work during the week so I don’t have to come in on a Saturday. Mm-hmm. . And they were like, that’s not how it’s done in the business. And I’m like, why ? Mm-hmm. . . And so I think, so somehow some, somewhere in the process I realized that I kind of got that mindset a little bit.
Mm-hmm. , and for six years I’ve been building the business the way traditional accountants build their business. You know, more, more clients. Then the client pays you, let’s say 2000 a year for tax return or something. Mm-hmm. if it’s [00:12:00] 2000 a year, you know, and then. , they own you. They ping you, they email you, and you’re stressed out, or you’re providing all this stuff for free and all of those things.
And I feel that because of that, I held myself back. I didn’t see that there was another way. There’s a different way. And when I came across this two coachings, one was a business coaching to help me take my my time back, and also proactive tax advisory. <AFFIRMATIVE> training, which was technical training.
That’s what allowed me to, to do this. But when I signed up for it, I already had probably about a hundred to 120 clients on an, at an average rate of dollars per clients. So 120,000. Right. And I couldn’t afford the coaching. It was close to 15 grand total. Mm-hmm. . So when I signed up, when I signed up for them, I signed up because I.
I thought, you know, I’m busy. I’m, I’ve gotten busy where I was working five days a week off season, seven days a week during the season, and I thought, this isn’t like, I can’t do this anymore. My kids were telling people that mommy always works and yeah. And I was like, that’s not why I wanted to do this.
But, but when I [00:13:00] saw, came across those two trainings with this at the same time, two together, I couldn’t afford it. It was 10 over 10% of my. Revenue. Mm-hmm. , and I thought, I just can’t do it differently. I, I can’t do it the same way. I have to do something different. Mm-hmm. , so I signed up and I never looked back, right?
Mm-hmm. , I got my time back, I got a lot more money and I realized that I was the one who was standing in my own way. Mm-hmm. , I was the one who didn’t allow myself to trust that there are ways to do it differently because I. Who, like, what can I possibly learn? , . I already, I already know it. All right. .
[00:13:34] Julie Bee – Host: Yeah.
Well, what, so where, how many years in business were you at that point? Six. Yeah. I, I see, I see that with, with business owners a lot here in that five to nine year period, often. , they have that thought of like, they’re not newbies anymore, but, and they feel like they’re, they, they know. They know it all. Not that they know it all, but sometimes they feel like, I, I’ve got this.
Like I know how to do this. Like they don’t need that [00:14:00] help. And then once you hit 10 years, I feel like that’s when you get that maturity of, yeah, I have no idea sometimes what I’m doing and I need help . So I asked you that because I was curious when in your, you know, your history of business that happened and I was guessing it was in that timeframe,
[00:14:17] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: You were right.
[00:14:18] Julie Bee – Host: So Tatiana, one thing I talk about a lot with business owners is burnout, and I have a feeling it kind of dovetails nicely off of what we were just talking about, but do you have any stories about burnout that you’d be willing to share with the audience? ,
[00:14:32] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: I mean, accountants ha wrote a book on burnout, I think.
Yeah. I think that accountants, unfortunately, I call accountants, and you’re gonna laugh at this maybe, but accountants, I call traditional accountants into s and m. And the reason is, I think because so many of traditional accountants are miserable, but they love being miserable. They do nothing to change that
Mm-hmm. . But burnout is real. You know, and think about it this way, the typical path for an accountant has. [00:15:00] Get more and more clients get burned out, hire somebody to help you, then be pressured to get more and more clients. Cause you have to pay somebody’s salary. Mm-hmm. then again, and it’s a catch 22 that never, never stops.
It never ends. And so you are in perpetual burnout and people live like that. For decades. Mm-hmm. , I think that it’s, it’s awful. And my, my own stories of burnout, like I said, it was kids telling people, mommy world always works. And for me it was a wake up moment, w t f moment, I would, I would even call it where I realized that I just can’t, can do it that way anymore.
Mm-hmm. , you know, I was working five days a week. People would pay me, let’s say a business client would pay me 1200 or a thousand for tax return. and they would feel that I owe them to answer their emails to mm-hmm. , answer their notices and all of those things for free. All of that stuff takes a lot, a lot of time and accountants are notorious, are known for not doing, not [00:16:00] charging for any of that stuff.
Mm-hmm. or giving quick advice, advice, and. burnout was not, you know, before my business grew to about a hundred clients or 120, that range in the sixth year of my, of my business being in business every summer, I would take, and this was important for me because. , you know, I quit the CPA firm because I wanted to be on my own.
Mm-hmm. , because I wanted, I got pregnant and I quit the firms mm-hmm. because I didn’t, I didn’t wanna raise children in stress and stuff. Yeah. And so I quit and I started my own thing, which I knew I would, I would do eventually anyway. Mm-hmm. . And so I, every summer, you know, like for two, three months, I would, we would reconnect with kids.
I mean, I never had a nanny. My mom helped out in the first few years of some of my. and I would go somewhere, we would go to a farm, we would go to a park, a playground or something. We would always do something in the summer cuz the weather was nice or swimming pool. And then this one year, which was 2018, [00:17:00] I, I got this schedule where like a client emails me and we need to talk, discuss X, Y, and Z and I and where can you do it?
And I look at my calendar and it’s open. So I would schedule one on a Wednesday afternoon. Mm-hmm. or morning. And then I ended up with every day of the week being some, having so. And so that summer I didn’t get a chance to con reconnect with my kids and spend all that time together, and I was really upset.
And so this was my burnout in terms of something that really matters in in life. And I mean, it matters to everyone, but it matters to me. It’s a priority for me. Yeah, so that that burnout was, was a wake up call, and that’s kind of when I decided I can’t do this the same way anymore. I have to do something differently.
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[00:18:05] Julie Bee – Host: You are listening to, they Don’t Teach This in Business School. And I’m the host, Julie B I’m here today with Tatiana Sawyer. And we were just talking about burnout and kind of how you got into that, but, but there’s one thing I really wanna want you to talk about, Tatiana, because a lot of B2B.
serve owners and entrepreneurs listen to this podcast, and I have, I have owned a marketing agency for 15 years and that, that element that you talked about where, when. You have clients who are paying you, you know, X dollars for the year or for a tax return in your case, or, or for, you know, a marketing monthly fee, and they feel like they can constantly reach out to you and ask you, what do you think about this?
What do you think about that? What should I do here? . How, how did you, did you change your business model to go to more of that value-based pricing, which is, you know, common these days [00:19:00] among CPAs and how, how did you go through that
[00:19:02] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: transition? It was an interesting journey. I can say with confidence that as of last June, so we’re talking June, 2022, I’ve completed that process.
It was a three and a half year journey. I got trained in price, psychology, got, and it was eye-opening. for me. I also sort of, you know, there are a couple of accountant value. gurus that talk about it. Mm-hmm. The problem is that when they talk about it, you don’t know how to actually implement it. You understand you wanna value bill, but you don’t know how to, how to do that properly.
And so I got trained in price psychology and I offered that as a service, but I applied it to my own firm and now I teach other accountants how to do mm-hmm. , how to apply that to their own firm. I had to restructure. Because accountants, we even joke between us, the clients ask us quick questions, right?
We call it quick questions. Mm-hmm. , . Mm-hmm. . And what I really loved was Ron Baker, who’s considered to be the father of value billing in the us. He said, people don’t pay you for your [00:20:00] hours. People don’t pay you for taxes or whatever it is that you do. Uh, you know, obviously the, your listeners are not accountants necessarily, right?
Mm-hmm. people pay you to access your. Yeah. And that access is expensive because I spend a lot of time and money. Mm-hmm. getting it to where it is, and so mm-hmm. , my restructuring started with, you know, price psychology, talks about menu pricing, having three packages and all of those things. Mm-hmm. . And so my initially when I started that process, you know, took probably about a year or two years of fine-tuning.
and now I finally, last year, um, I guess engaged out a bunch of clients mm-hmm. , who are not part of the model mm-hmm. , which, which is, which is, which was great. Mm-hmm. because now I don’t have to deal with the lack of books or, you know, stuff like that. Mm-hmm. , which was really painful for an accountant. But I developed my pricing and I realized that I no longer can offer.
a tax return preparation as a standalone service. Mm-hmm. , it has to come with bookkeeping and or some tax [00:21:00] planning. So the minimum fee is X, Y, and Z. Mm-hmm. . And so I made that my basic package. So in order to work with me, there’s a basic package. Mm-hmm. , there’s always gonna be people that want an all-inclusive resort.
I’m one of those people. Mm-hmm. generally. Mm-hmm. . And so for them you have to have a package. includes it all, right? Mm-hmm. . And usually the more people pay, I mean, you probably know this, the more people pay, the less they bother you because they respect their time and they respect your time as well.
[00:21:28] Julie Bee – Host: Isn’t that funny how that works out?
[00:21:30] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: Yeah. Yeah. But, but the clients, you know, the clients love, love it. And I, I have a number of clients who are on my elite package. The audit representation is included for that notice response is included for all the packages, things like that. But I no longer. You know, and if, of course, if they send me an email, it’s usually clarification or we discuss something on the phone, on the call.
We have weekly calls with elite clients or depending on how they, they are looking to, to, to connect and get support from me. [00:22:00] But the idea is that they generally. , uh, are really good clients because we take care of, of everything for, for mm-hmm. for them. Mm-hmm. and I utilize a bookkeeper and an accountant to help with that.
And the mental package is great. So I’ve developed those fine, tuned them probably two years into it, phased out 10 to 20 clients every year. Who I knew. You know, you see their books, you know that they can’t afford you. Yeah. So they can’t afford to be on board. So I just referred them to another c p a.
Some accountants sell clients like that. Either way works, but, but that’s kind of how I got into where I am today. Mm-hmm. And it was a process. It, it wasn’t something that you just flipped the switch and that’s it. You’re value billing.
[00:22:39] Julie Bee – Host: Yeah, especially when I think we’re, you know, we all are kind of geared to think one way about how certain types of industries offer certain types of services and when that’s, there’s an education process to it.
But I think ultimately at the end of the day, what’s really important and the types of clients you wanna work with are. Those who both respect your [00:23:00] time and, you know, respect your knowledge, but you also know that they know that you’re gonna, you are gonna respect their time as well. So there’s a, I think when you elevate to that level, there’s a mutual respect there that you don’t get when you’re basically selling tax returns or selling, you know, setting up social media accounts in my case.
So, yeah, I think I just wanted to talk about that a little bit because I know a lot of business owners. who listen to this, struggle with that. You know, lawyers, CPAs, insurance brokers, like there’s all kinds of these service-based businesses that all, you know, all day long, they’re, they could be hit, hit up by existing clients who.
think that just because they pay them once a year or once a month even, that they can contact them at any time for anything and that’s not always the case. So Tatiana, I do wanna ask you, because I love asking business owners this. How do you define success?
[00:23:54] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: Success for me is to have the time you want her [00:24:00] family and enjoying a great business that not only makes you money, but also.
changes the world, makes the world a better place. Hmm. That’s success.
[00:24:12] Julie Bee – Host: Well, we can’t get much better than that. . So listen, I have enjoyed this interview so much, but as we’re coming to the end of the show here, I always have one question I asked business owners, and that is if you had taken a class on business ownership when you were going through business school, what is one thing that you wish you would have learned in that class?
[00:24:33] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: For me, it’s psychology. And I’ll explain kind of what, what I mean by that. I’m learning now studying psychology now just for, for myself because I enjoy it so much. I actually wanted to be a psychology major way back in the beginning of my college and, and my then boyfriend, now husband said every Russian is a psychologist,
And I’m like, darn it. [00:25:00] So I decided against it. . But you know, and psychology is important, not just organizational psychology. Now I have an mba. I’ve been through business school and I, you know, I could, it could be a different session for us to talk about what they should and should not teach at a business school.
But yeah, psychology, human psychology is important. And the reason I wish I had learned that is because money, taxes and all of those things. Play a direct role in how mentally healthy you are. Mm-hmm. money worries is something that creates anxiety and all kinds of psychological effects on a human being.
And I know that from my dad of how he grew up and how he, how I grew up when, you know, when he was still here and. I think that it, those money worries and those numbers affect us so much psychologically that we become different human beings. My dad used to scream at, at us as kids. . And, you know, and, and when I [00:26:00] became a business owner, I understood why he was screaming because he, he was bringing his stress, money, stress, and worries at, in his business.
Mm-hmm. home. Mm-hmm. , which, you know, which is another conversation how he should have handled it. But, you know, he was a great dad and all of those things. We got a lot of things that he didn’t have when he was growing up. Mm-hmm. , but for me, , if I had known how to be my own support system, how to be my own core.
Mm-hmm. as opposed to trying to lean on somebody else, or not leaning on anyone and just being lost and anxious and worrying. Mm-hmm. all the time knowing what to do. That would, that’s something that I wish I, I learned earlier in my business career. . Yeah,
[00:26:41] Julie Bee – Host: I hear that. And it’s interesting because I, you know, well, kind of circling back to the psychology thing, it’s funny how we always end up, I think doing a little bit of what we always wanted to do.
I got a degree in accounting and a master’s degree in accounting and a c CPA [00:27:00] license. . But when I went into school, there were two things that I was thinking about majoring in. One was marketing, which I started a marketing agency, you know, almost 15 years ago now. And two was sports broadcast. I wa you know, wanted to be like a broadcaster.
And here I am with these podcasts and creating a media empire. So I think it’s funny how things sometimes come full circle and that’s that, you know, when you’re that age, you, you tend to listen to other people more than you listen to yourself, I think. And I, I. I, I think that is something that I would teach in business school is, you know, just to listen, to trust yourself a little bit more than, you know, maybe you do.
Give yourself a little bit more credit for knowing where you want to go. ,
[00:27:42] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: yeah. for sure. Trusting yourself and, and also, yeah. You know, trusting your interests and mm-hmm. and I believe in having skills that can support you. And so if I could go back, I would take psychology as a second major or something like that, you know, but yeah, absolutely.
I still [00:28:00] love accounting and, and things like that, which is why I still do it, but mm-hmm. . But I wish I learned psychology, so not only can I help me, but also help my clients struggle with the same
[00:28:11] Julie Bee – Host: thing. Exactly. Well, Tatiana, listen, I have so enjoyed this conversation. I’m, I’m really excited for you and wanted to say congratulations about getting a TEDx talk as well.
I know how big of a deal that is. Thanks. But I know the business owners listening are gonna just enjoy this and learn so much as well. Just thank you so much for being on the show today. It’s been a really good one.
[00:28:30] Tatiana Tsoir – Guest: Thanks so much, Julie. It’s been a
[00:28:31] Julie Bee – Host: pleasure. And that’s it for this episode, but stay tuned because I’ll be back with more lessons learned on the business owner’s journey.
I’m Julie Bean and they don’t teach this in business school.